ARE YOU THINKING in regards to the potential of transitioning an area of your backyard into one factor further quite a few, like presumably a meadow? A question I’m requested reasonably so much is one of the best ways to go about it—the exact preparatory steps. So I invited Benjamin Vogt, a specialist in pure panorama design, to walk us by the tactic.
Benjamin, based in Nebraska, is proprietor of Prairie Up, beforehand known as Monarch Gardens. And along with offering yard design to consumers nationwide, he teaches on-line classes and webinars as successfully. He’s the creator of two books, “A New Yard Ethic,” and additional simply recently, “Prairie Up: An Introduction to Pure Yard Design” (affiliate hyperlinks).
Plus: Enter to win a duplicate of “Prairie Up” by commenting inside the subject near the underside of the net web page.
Study alongside as you are taking heed to the July 15, 2024 model of my public-radio current and podcast using the participant beneath. You’ll subscribe to all future editions on Apple Podcasts (iTunes) or Spotify (and browse my archive of podcasts proper right here).
getting a meadow started, with benjamin vogt
Margaret: Are you sweltering in the marketplace or no? We’ve obtained the heat this yr. Is that the deal?
Benjamin: Our sweltering begins on Friday and solely lasts 4 days, thankfully.
Margaret: So sooner than we get started: Congratulations in your new site, which is so loaded with knowledge. It’s not merely pretty, however it absolutely’s obtained numerous good stuff in it. So that you just survived that massive course of too, correct? Making a meadow, making a site—they’re type of the equivalent.
Benjamin: Oh my gosh, certain, certain. That was over a four-month course of to get that site going and guarantee it actually labored. And there’s nonetheless hiccups as you already know, that’s the way in which it goes. Nevertheless I merely wished to make sure that I did one factor really utterly completely different. I felt like one factor that wasn’t in the marketplace merely telling people, handholding them, “That’s the manner you do it, that’s the way you alternate from backyard and create a prairie yard of any dimension. And proper right here’s a bunch of free stuff and if you happen to want to go further, you might get on-line classes, or one factor.”
Margaret: Yeah, no. Correctly, it’s good. And I’ve been clicking spherical and learning points and that’s why I obtained in touch. And we’re doing this exchange at current, one different part at current, on account of there’s a complete lot of fine issues that I noticed could assist me to answer questions that I don’t have the firsthand data on that you just do by any means.
So one issue I merely have to say is on the homepage it says, quote, “Backyard is a weed.” [Laughter.] So, is it?
Benjamin: I like to start out out trouble, nonetheless hopefully it’s good trouble. Correctly, I suggest, so sometimes we hear {{that a}} native crops are weeds or anytime you take a prairie plant or a prairie planting and put it inside the context of suburbia, for example, significantly everytime you’re altering backyard, successfully then it’s immediately a weed. However when it’s out in a wild prairie or grassland or meadow or savanna or one factor like that, it’s not a weed.
So that’s on a regular basis very irritating to me. And I do know a complete lot of my consumers, and significantly talking with weed-control inspectors, their idea of weeds are considerably bit outdated too sometimes. Points are getting increased all through the nation, nonetheless we nonetheless have this outdated conception of what a weed is. So I’m equivalent to, backyard is the weed; t’s so artificial. Now we now have to throw so much water and fertilizer and maintenance on it just for it to be maintained.
Margaret: So as I said inside the introduction, numerous individuals are almost definitely eyeing their expansive backyard presently and pondering of making a change, on account of as a result of a complete lot of the education that folk like yourselves have helped with over the present years, and I do know numerous folks almost definitely assume, “Correctly, nonetheless I don’t reside in Nebraska like he does.” Nevertheless there’s varied sorts of plant communities. I say the phrase meadow, you might say the phrase prairie. In some situations there’s savanna, there’s fields. Correctly, what are all these points? Can we merely start with that sooner than we go and try to teach people to make a meadow [laughter]?
Benjamin: Yeah, that’s exactly why I imagine it’s on internet web page two of my information “Prairie Up,” that complete rationalization. I imagine these phrases are very interchangeable for many people. It’s not interchangeable for soil scientists or conservationists or one factor, nonetheless all of us have the equivalent image in our head. I imagine if people say meadow presumably you suggest an open glade stuffed with flowers that’s surrounded by bushes. Nevertheless these ecosystems occur in every state. This prairie idea, this meadow idea, this savanna idea. Now we now have the longleaf pine savanna remnants inside the Southeast, the Piedmont alongside the East Coast, the Palouse inside the Northwest, the Carrizo Plain in California, sandhills proper right here in Nebraska. So now we now have these environments and ecosystems in every single place. So it’s not like prairie or meadow is just in the midst of the nation. Not any stretch of the creativeness.
Margaret: Considered one of many first crops I met in quotes as soon as I bought right here to the place the place I reside and yard presumably 35 years prior to now or so, was little bluestem grass, which I had solely ever seen beforehand as soon as I used to be visiting in Wisconsin with Neil Diboll who owns Prairie Nursery. And I was like, “Why do I’ve little bluestem proper right here?” [Laughter.] I was like, “What? I merely observed that in the marketplace. It says prairie, it says, huh, what?” Yeah, exactly. There are grassland plant communities in many various areas.
Benjamin: And successfully, and easily take little bluestem. It’s nearly in practically every state inside the lower 48. It’s solely a pair states I don’t assume it’s native to. And I on a regular basis like to tell people, significantly of us on the East Coast, we share so numerous the equivalent crops. Correct proper right here in Jap Nebraska, now we now have so numerous the equivalent native crops, and that’s all as a result of geologic historic previous. Now, if we go 100 miles west of the place I am, then points start to shift considerably bit.
Margaret: So if we have to take into accounts getting started, and we don’t need to current it a exact establish, nonetheless let’s merely use the phrase meadow on account of it sounds to me in a way, the phrase meadow sounds the closest to gardening. On account of there was all that industrial, I suppose—and that’s horrible that I’m influenced by it—nonetheless you heard of the promoting devices like “meadow in a can” or “meadow mixes” for seeds that are meadow mix for this area of the nation, or that. They’ve an inclination to market points like that versus say a prairie mix earlier on to gardeners for… So let’s merely use the phrase meadow for the second.
There’s a complete lot of strategies to get started, nonetheless while you don’t get started, whether or not or not you’re going to work with seeds or small panorama plugs or greater crops or nonetheless you’re going to plant the issue, you presumably can waste some big money and a complete lot of time, couldn’t you, while you don’t put collectively your canvas, so to speak.
Benjamin: Yeah, I suggest there’s so some methods to try this. I imagine considered one of many points we overlook is just web site analysis. And significantly if you happen to’re altering part of your backyard proper right into a meadow type yard panorama, I on a regular basis like to tell of us, successfully, what part of your lawnscape or any part of your panorama, the place are points struggling? Presumably there’s an extreme quantity of shade so backyard can’t develop, in any other case you actually really feel like you might solely develop hosta there. That’s almost definitely a perfect place to think about doing one factor meadow-ish with native crops. Or we’re all experiencing cycles of drought and heat correct now. Last yr in Jap Nebraska, we now have been in drought diploma 4. It was merely insane and lawns have been dying left and correct.
So presumably inside the really scorching, open areas, or presumably you may have sandier soil in these areas, that’s a perfect place to think about doing one factor further sustainable. It’s going to be further drought tolerant or resilient to the native climate change that we’re in, and that may solely worsen. So that’s your first area to go to, the placement analysis, what’s struggling, what kind of shade is there? How is water flowing from the placement, what kind of weed pressures are there, all that good issues. Nevertheless then the smart, I do know you want me to discuss smart lawn-.
Margaret: Optimistic, nonetheless I want you to tell us the way in which you assume sooner than you dig in in any method, really or figuratively [laughter]. On account of as soon as extra, if we rush, if people rush, in the event that they merely go order the crops or order the seed and assume it’s merely going to happen, I suggest there’s way more pondering that wishes to enter it, and a bunch of laborious work, too.
Benjamin: And significantly, and the laborious work isn’t merely inside the prep, each, or the planting, it could be for a yr or two afterward. Typically these web sites have a complete lot of weed stress that we merely can’t anticipate. We don’t know what weed seeds are inside the soil monetary establishment. So you actually need to keep on excessive of some of those weeds. Some are further problematic than others. You don’t have to worry about all of them, nonetheless while you keep it up them the first yr or two, then you definately definately’re really serving to the crops arrange and get going. After that, it tends to be reasonably so much a lot much less work, significantly while you’re planting densely in layers inside the native plant communities that are endemic to the world and fit your web site and all that good issues.
Margaret: So there’s prep and there’s aftercare, and now we now have to make a dedication to our planning prep and aftercare then.
Benjamin: Yeah, utterly. And hopefully that aftercare and that administration, it’s pleasing for you. You favor to go in the marketplace and, “Oh, what’s that cool plant? Oh, look what that cool issue is doing. I certainly not knew it was going to do that. That’s neat.” So merely going in the marketplace and 10-minute stroll on every day foundation and likewise you merely deal with one little issue all through that 10 minutes on every day foundation. It doesn’t have to be a large, “I’ve to order 10 yards of mulch and unfold it and blow up my once more type of issue.”
Margaret: Correct [laughter]. So by the use of the prep, I suggest if we do take into account our web site and we’ve chosen an area presumably primarily based totally on one amongst your examples that will probably be good for transitioning. And we’re saying that it’s in turf; it’s in turfgrass correct now. There’s fairly a couple of different methods to eliminate that turfgrass with a goal to present the model new crops, the required crops a possibility. So what kind of strategies are there to do that?
Benjamin: There’s 4 or presumably 5 strategies to do that, and I’m going to preface this with some caveats by saying it type of depends upon considerably bit on what your ideology is as far as prep, and type of how so much time dedication you may have. And if it’s a entrance yard or a yard, on account of I don’t assume you’ll want to put plastic out in a entrance yard for an entire rising season. I don’t understand how your neighbors would actually really feel about that.
Nevertheless then there’s moreover your bodily functionality. How so much can you actually do? So the first, successfully, I already talked about plastic, people will put out a sheet of plastic—black, white, irrespective of, blue tarp or one factor—to kill irrespective of is there on web site.
And what happens reasonably so much is of us will do that just one time, and that’s actually not what you’ll want to do. It’s best to do it for 4 weeks, take the quilt of the plastic off for two weeks, let weed seeds germinate, let new points germinate so that they’re not going to set off points for you down the road. Then after two weeks, put that tarp once more on as soon as extra. And in addition you do that a couple of events for an entire rising season, and that may really set you up for plenty of success. Nevertheless as soon as extra, tarps blow away. Your neighbors will not choose to see your complete entrance yard in a tarp [laughter]. There’s microplastics coming off of that plastic sheeting, and then you definately definately obtained to remove it and it’s further plastic waste. So there are execs and cons to that.
Margaret: So solarization is one, or tarping, counting on whether or not or not you make the most of a clear or a dark-colored piece of plastic. Solarization or tarping is one methodology, to not be merely put down as quickly as and likewise you assume you’ve solved all of the items, on account of as you recognized, and likewise you recognized earlier, there may be often a really deep seed monetary establishment of weed seeds that have to have the next period, the next period, and the next period. So we’re going to tarp, we’re going to let the next period emerge, we’re going to tarp as soon as extra, and so forth.
Benjamin: Yeah. And if you happen to want to be really, really thorough, that’s what you’ll be able to do for the next methodology, which is using a chemical software program, a glyphosate-based product. Now, when you could have a super-pristine backyard and it’s thick and splendid and inexperienced, and likewise you’ve spent some big money sustaining it, chances are high excessive this is not assured. Nevertheless chances are high excessive, your weed-seed monetary establishment should not be going to be as crazy as one factor that has a complete lot of weeds already in it that you could be see clovers and I don’t know, God is conscious of what, correct?
So with glyphosate, if you happen to want to be really cautious, you might spray after which wait a pair weeks and see what comes up and spray as soon as extra and do that for a couple of months. Or you’ll be able to do the one-time software program, put down an inch of mulch, which is what we do, and that may help in the reduction of a couple of of those annual weed seeds from germinating on account of these seeds need daylight sooner than they’ll do one thing. After which we put all of our plant plugs inside the ground. So I hope that merely made sense.
Margaret: So you may have this in your site, you identify this function—utilizing chemical herbicide—you identify this, “You’ll hate me for this.” [Laughter.] That’s your establish. And it is true, and I on a regular basis choose to say at any time when this matter comes up about using chemical functions in any event, is that even conservation organizations try this, inside the least-toxic methodology doable, for the bigger good. Which is not to say broadcast spraying anytime they see one little weed in a crack inside the sidewalk, taking out a gallon of 1 factor; it’s not willy-nilly. It’s centered. It’s primarily based on the bundle deal directions. It’s with a perform, and it’s for the bigger good to then be planting one factor.
So as soon as extra, conservation organizations that run properties, wilder properties, the place invasives are taking on and so forth, they do use them on account of they should carry once more the native crops and so forth. So we’re not saying we’re in favor, we’re like big believers in herbicides. We’re saying that could be a methodology that you’ll be able to do it, that while you do it neatly, it’s a minimal amount and it could be for the bigger good—that you could be end up with a meadow, which is way extra quite a few than that backyard you eliminated. Positive?
Benjamin: Positive. Thanks. That was a perfect speech. [Laughter.] And I moreover want…
Margaret: I rehearsed it.
Benjamin: I moreover want so as to add, it’s not that pricey and it’s not that labor-intensive. So that’s a implausible boon for these conservationists, too. However as well as I imagine for us, and it’s the one issue we ever use, and it’s the one time we ever use it, so it’s a one-time shot.
Margaret: Correct. So these are two prospects. Solarization and the “you’ll hate me for this” herbicide methodology, certain? [Laughter.] And type of like solarization, you presumably can moreover smother it with completely different provides, correct?
Benjamin: Cardboard, newspaper. Yeah, that’s the lasagna methodology, correct?
Margaret: Do you identify that what? Sheet mulching?
Benjamin: Sheet mulching, certain. That’s something-
Margaret: Inform us the way in which you do that.
Benjamin: I suggest that’s one factor I’ve certainly not accomplished on account of, successfully, I’m typically engaged on a much bigger endeavor, so I don’t have 10,000 sq. toes of cardboard. So while you’re working in a smaller area and this matches your ideology, and your once more and your knees are all in cooperating with you, presumably scalp the backyard really temporary, put down a layer of cardboard or newspaper, thick newspaper, moist it considerably bit, positioned on some mulch or positioned on considerably little little bit of topsoil. I suppose it is going to depend upon what your web site conditions are like. And you may let that sit over the winter so it mixes all in and biodegrades, or when you may moist that cardboard right away, you might merely dig correct into it and start planting.
Margaret: Yeah. Dan Jaffe Wilder at Norcross Wildlife Foundation in Massachusetts [photo above from his yard]—he’s been doing that in his private yard reasonably so much. As soon as extra, on a smaller scale, not in his big restoration initiatives, nonetheless in his private yard. And he adheres to that, and I’ve heard completely different people describe it, that type of smothering type of issue, and type of using recycled provides and so forth after which the mulch. So that’s one different methodology. Now then how for for much longer would I plant into that, get my little one crops in there?
Benjamin: What do you suggest, how for for much longer?
Margaret: Oh, I’m sorry. How for for much longer? How so much later? [Laughter.] Sorry, how for for much longer? How so much later? It’s scorching in proper right here. I’m sorry.
Benjamin: I do know. I do know. I’m sorry.
Margaret: How so much later? I was like I have to make it potential for I’ve accomplished my job of smothering these, what was there, the turf and so forth. So then if I did that this summer season or fall and I let it sit all winter, could I plant subsequent spring? Or how do I do know when it’s O.Okay. to plant? Or can I plant right away or what’s the timeline?
Benjamin: Every. I imagine you do it each method. Once you plant right away, you’ll want to make it potential for cardboard is sweet and moist, so it’s less complicated to dig into. Nevertheless as soon as extra, as with each planting, it does not matter what methodology you’re doing, anytime you dig into the soil and disturb it, you certainly not know what you’re going to hold to the ground spherical that planting hole.
Margaret: [Laughter.] That’s for constructive.
Benjamin: Shock, have pleasing.
Margaret: After which what’s one different methodology that we could take into consideration?
Benjamin: Yeah, I imagine that’s the last one. I don’t know. I misplaced rely, nonetheless now this one is considerably bit further adventurous. That’s one factor I’ve accomplished on my private property, 2,500 sq. toes out once more, the place I had a backyard. I hated backyard, I merely harassed it out. I certainly not watered it, I certainly not fertilized it. And as soon as I mowed, I mowed really extreme. So that truly harassed the backyard. So I had numerous patches open up, numerous open areas, and I merely started planting points proper right here and there, in groups and much extra and many. After which I threw down some seed and finally these crops unfold and took over and killed the ultimate remnants of backyard which were in the marketplace.
Margaret: So that you simply type of direct planted, you just about overseeded your weakened backyard, is that the thought?
Benjamin: Overseeded and planted straight into it. Now, it’s a fescue backyard, a tall fescue backyard I’m talking about. So there are variations when you could have one factor, a further sociable, aggressive backyard like a zoysia or one factor like that.
Margaret: Fascinating. And in addition you said you mowed it really extreme to emphasise it out?
Benjamin: Yeah. Correctly, not on perform. I’m a lazy lawn-taker-care-of-er [laughter], so I would let it develop really prolonged, like 8 inches or 12 inches or one factor. It’s behind a fence, no particular person can see it. And I merely lastly, it’s like, “Oh, I suppose I should mow it.” So yeah, that stresses it out.
Margaret: After which, I suggest, I suppose we may also rent a sod cutter, correct?
Benjamin: Oh, certain. That’s another option.
Margaret: It’s he-man. Truly, it’s a macho machine, excuse me for sounding sexist, however it absolutely’s not a lightweight machine, a sod cutter, is it?
Benjamin: I do know people of all gender identities who’re macho, so irrespective of.
Margaret: Nevertheless all I meant was it takes some muscle to run a sod cutter.
Benjamin: A complete lot of muscle, and you purchased to have a trailer.
Margaret: That’s all I suggest, yeah.
Benjamin: And you purchased to go to the ironmongery retailer to decide on it up. And presumably I should endure the cons of all these methods in 10 seconds. So yeah, sod cutter.
Margaret: Yeah, we are going to do that nonetheless a sod cutter is one different method, correct?
Benjamin: Yeah, a sod cutter is one different method, nonetheless then you definately definately’re spewing out all that exhaust from the sod cutter. What do you do with all that sod that’s left over, significantly if it’s weed-infested, I suggest, do you really have to compost that? Almost certainly not.
Once more to sheet mulching. There’s been some analysis that current everytime you put that cardboard layer down, you’re actually impeding water and air swap between the soil and the setting.
With solarizing, you’re baking the soil, you’re frying it, so that you simply’re frying the entire soil life that’s in there. And don’t ever till, of us. Tilling is the worst issue you’ll be able to do on so many ranges. You’re going to have so much weed stress, you’re destroying the soil building, you’re killing soil life. It’s merely the worst prep methodology ever.
Margaret: Yeah. So every has its—and everyone knows the draw again of the herbicide. So every, there’s execs and cons, and that’s why you said initially we type of each should make our private decision weighing these, our type of ethical, philosophical, what we’re comfortable with and amount of labor we are going to do and the funds and irrespective of else. So there’s a complete lot of different methods.
Benjamin: Most important issue is just in the reduction of your backyard, on account of now we now have an extreme quantity of of it.
Margaret: Correct, exactly. Correctly, and so along with prep, I suggest you type of have been merely talking about tilling and about a few areas alongside the way in which wherein in our dialog you’ve talked about in regards to the weed seeds that are inside the soil and so forth inside the seed monetary establishment inside the soil.
And I uncover that with sustaining a meadow, the type of weeding, even after I perceive methods to set up what I need to in the reduction of or remove as a result of the meadow evolves and changes, I’ve a so much older meadow, and so I’ve woody points that have to reside in it on account of succession is happening. And so I’ve a complete lot of brambles, like Rubus species and so forth that have to be in it. And I on a regular basis have that question of, successfully, do I dig them out and open up? Correctly, you perceive how the roots of Rubus are, blackberry or raspberry [laughter]. It’s like, do I open up all that soil and doubtlessly end up with further points sprouting up? Or how do you do that? What’s your type of tactic for aftercare?
Benjamin: There’s so some methods to technique this on account of disturbance can actually be a helpful issue. It items some new points in motion. Out proper right here in Jap Nebraska, a complete lot of our meadows, prairies, they’ve an inclination to get grass-dominant. So now we now have to herald considerably little little bit of disturbance. And that could be by grazing, it could be by fire. In a smaller panorama that could be by digging up bushes or berry shrubs or weeds or irrespective of.
After which you may have that gap, and that gives you an opportunity to introduce a model new forb species in there, or to let completely different crops type of self-sow in there. So I imagine disturbances could be really helpful in type of resetting points considerably bit, significantly to… I suggest, it could even be detrimental [laughter]. You don’t know. You’ll have some really harmful stuff switch in.
Nevertheless I on a regular basis like to tell people this, too. And as soon as extra, that’s site-dependent. It’ll depend upon while you’re making an attempt to do a entrance yard, really extraordinarily designed panorama that your neighbors are going to be gained over by, or if it’s further yard, greater acreage and likewise you merely can’t go in there and protect every sq. foot. On account of if it’s this greater yard, further wilder space, then you definately definately don’t need to be anal-retentive in regards to the weeds. And there are weeds like crabgrass and foxtail, they’re merely annuals. As long as now we now have the good issues rising fast and dense and thick and outcompeting and shading the soil, these annual weeds are going to go away, and they also’re not a difficulty.
I tried to make clear this to a weed inspector as quickly as [laughter], nonetheless we misplaced and we misplaced the yard and easily didn’t have to be affected particular person on account of it was a entrance yard space. So in a entrance yard further designed space, you’ll want to maintain on that weed administration, even once they’re annual weeds. However when it’s a thick panorama, most people strolling by almost definitely aren’t going to notice what’s a weed and what isn’t.
Margaret: Correct. Correct. Is there one different question along with this type of aftercare weed issue? Is there one different little tip or one factor that you just’re requested frequently that you just, along with the prep and what you merely said in regards to the weeding, one other one which’s similar to the hit parade of questions [laughter] that you find yourself telling people frequently?
Benjamin: Yeah, I’m married. I’m not obtainable. I’m sorry. No.
Margaret: You collectively together with your jokes, you may have some pretty humorous jokes on…you may have elevator jokes and all forms of jokes on the model new site; you’re cracking me up.
Benjamin: Elevator jokes press all my buttons. I don’t like them.
Margaret: Uh-huh.
Benjamin: Considered one of many points I get requested excessive 5 a minimal of is, or it’s a comment: “I’ve a really shady metropolis lot, so I do know I can’t have a meadow yard.” And I’m equivalent to, “No, I’ve obtained 20 crops I can guidelines off the best of my head. We’ll create an beautiful shade meadow in that panorama.” You don’t merely should have hosta after which a bunch of picket mulch or just bare soil. We’ll get a bunch of sedge in there and get that matrix groundcover layer going with a bunch of varied sedge species. After which now we now have so many woodland for perennial and ephemeral and biennial species that we are going to herald there. And you will have a shade meadow [photo above]. Fully.
Margaret: Oh, that’s a wonderful one. Correctly, that’s a wonderful one to complete on too. That’s very optimistic and it type of widens the, “Ooh, I can try this,” type of prospects for people. So I’ll focus on to you way more. And likewise I’ll have you ever ever merely come on and we could do a whole part in your telling jokes, elevator jokes [laughter], nonetheless we gained’t do that. Nevertheless thanks, Benjamin, for making the time. So I hope I’ll focus on to you as soon as extra shortly. And congratulations on doing the model new site, which I’ll give hyperlinks to in reality and all of the items as successfully. So thanks.
Benjamin: Superior. Thanks, Margaret.
(All photographs from Benjamin Vogt in addition to as well-known.)
enter to win a duplicate of ‘prairie up’
I’LL BUY A COPY of “Prairie Up: An Introduction to Pure Yard Design” by Benjamin Vogt, for one lucky reader. All it is a should to do to enter is reply this question inside the suggestions subject beneath:
Have you ever ever prepped new areas of your yard for any perform, to point out backyard into one factor else? Inform us what and what methodology you used.
No reply, or feeling shy? Merely say one factor like “rely me in” and I am going to, nonetheless a reply is even increased. I’ll select a random winner after entries shut at midnight Tuesday, July 23, 2024. Good luck to all.
(Disclosure: As an Amazon Affiliate I earn from qualifying purchases.)
select the podcast mannequin of the current?
MY WEEKLY public-radio current, rated a “top-5 yard podcast” by “The Guardian” newspaper inside the UK, began its fifteenth yr in March 2024. It’s produced at Robin Hood Radio, the smallest NPR station inside the nation. Listen regionally inside the Hudson Valley (NY)-Berkshires (MA)-Litchfield Hills (CT) Mondays at 8:30 AM Jap, rerun at 8:30 Saturdays. Or play the July 15, 2024 current using the participant near the best of this transcript. You’ll subscribe to all future editions on iTunes/Apple Podcasts or Spotify (and browse my archive of podcasts proper right here).