IT’S ONE of the best-known naturalistic gardens wherever, and however it’s perched in basically probably the most unnatural spot conceivable, 30 toes extreme above New York Metropolis website guests on an abandoned elevated railway line. The Extreme Line on Manhattan’s West Facet is celebrating the fifteenth anniversary of the opening of its first half, years which have been filled with expert lessons on gardening on this looser, nature-inspired sort.
In the mean time’s customer is Richard Hayden, the Extreme Line’s senior director of horticulture. His group of 10 horticulturists manages the naturalistic gardens, initially designed by Piet Oudolf of the Netherlands, spanning components of the 1.5-mile beloved park that welcomes about 7 million company a yr. (Above, overhead image by Timothy Schenck.)
Be taught alongside as you’re taking heed to the July 8, 2024 model of my public-radio current and podcast using the participant beneath. You could subscribe to all future editions on Apple Podcasts (iTunes) or Spotify (and browse my archive of podcasts proper right here).
lessons in naturalistic gardening, with richard hayden
Margaret Roach: So blissful anniversary, birthday—regardless of we have to title it, to you and the group.
Richard Hayden: Thanks.
Margaret: It was satisfying meeting a number of of you, a minimum of almost, to do a modern “New York Situations” yard column collectively, which obtained an superior response, which made me blissful. So briefly, I consider for individuals who discover themselves listening from all over the place who couldn’t have visited, inform us the lay of the non-land over there [laughter]. I indicate, it is a nutty setup when you think about it.
Richard: When you think about it altogether, the reality that it occurred the least bit is often a miracle. So in spite of everything, it was an unused, elevated railway on the West Facet of Manhattan. And over the course of the 20 years that the trains weren’t working, seeds had drifted in and birds had most likely dropped only a few points off and soil had gotten created, and so this panorama had occurred.
And when the time acquired right here to ponder what to do with it throughout the late ’90s, the idea it’d flip right into a yard on account of people had been up proper right here looking at it in its wild state, and there have been some very good photos taken by Joel Sternfeld of its wild state that it turned this idea that it might probably be a yard. And Piet Oudolf was employed and Self-discipline Operations and Diller Scofidio + Renfro did some good designs.
And proper right here we’re 15 years later, and it is, I consider one of many essential obligatory public gardens of the twenty first century, on account of it modified the way in which during which we think about how we yard. It’s the 4 season yard. As Piet says, “a plant isn’t worth rising till it seems good lifeless.” [Laughter.] And it’s true. It’s so gorgeous proper right here throughout the fall and throughout the winter, nonetheless it’s three-dimensional yard chess that he performs on account of each zone is barely completely totally different.
And it provides you this emotionally evocative journey as you go from woodlands to grasslands and completely totally different combos and complexities. And naturally, all that complexity leads to biodiversity. Now we have now many bees and birds and totally different animals that go to. So it’s solely a really nice respite from city.
Margaret: And the issue that after we did the Situations story that I merely found everytime you first said it to me and I merely can’t recuperate from the idea of it, you’ve got acquired your soil depth up there and these beds that had been constructed for this on this elevated railway, the soil is never what, better than 18 inches deep? I indicate, it’s like raised beds [above, during pruning season; photo by Richard Hayden] on a raised railroad platform.
Richard: You’re correct. It’s primarily 18 inches. There’s a pair spots the place we’ve obtained some raised planters that we mound up and probably get to 30 inches or so. And I’ve to tell you, after I first started, which was about just a bit over two and a half years up to now, and I was seeing these 30-foot-tall birch timber and oak timber and all these giant timber rising in 18 inches of soil, it really saved me up at night time time. Every time the wind would blow…
Margaret: I may need a panic assault on the thought-about it. Exactly.
Richard: After which I did some mountaineering in Northwest Connecticut on the Appalachian Path, and there had been a windstorm, and these mature timber had blown over. And lo and behold, 18 inches of roots resulting from all of the glacial rock. The forest was really rising in 18 inches of soil. And I believed, you acknowledge what? Mother Nature’s figured this out. I don’t have to worry loads.
Margaret: O.Okay., so to procure started sleeping, good [laughter].
Richard: Positive, exactly.
Margaret: Nevertheless it is. It’s really pretty a feat and it’s good that it was impressed by that self-sown madness that had occurred on this abandoned home.
Richard: Exactly, exactly, clearly with a artistic eye. And the problem with 18 inches is that it doesn’t… Because of there could possibly be warmth air on excessive and warmth air beneath, and chilly air on excessive and chilly air beneath, so we don’t have quite a lot of cushion.
Margaret: No.
Richard: So all through heat waves, as an illustration, we now need to be very cautious to keep up points with the exact moisture ranges. After which throughout the winter typically, we do lose only a few points if we now have a moist chilly snap or one factor. So it does make challenges for that methodology.
Margaret: So Piet designed it in a naturalistic sort, and he’s type of the chief of that movement. However it doesn’t indicate that it’s all native. And it moreover doesn’t indicate, naturalistic doesn’t indicate, like hands-off, let it do its issue; regardless of happens, happens. It is a design. So let’s focus on just a bit bit about that.
Richard: Correct. So it is about 50 % native. We did an beautiful hort celebration ultimate yr the place we honored New York Metropolis native vegetation, and we stumbled on we had 160 species that had been native or recognized to be native to New York Metropolis out of the 5 hundred or so species that we now have. They normally weren’t chosen on account of they’d been native, they’d been chosen on account of they’re merely really good, resilient vegetation. So I was blissful to do this discovery.
And Piet could also be very loads about gardens are for people, and so natives are good, nonetheless typically there are bloom durations the place the natives really aren’t filling the realm of curiosity or probably they don’t have adequate winter development. He’s blissful to combine points as long as they’re well-behaved, and we now have only a few that have not been so well-behaved. So it’s a learning curve.
Margaret: [Laughter.] Don’t all of us, Richard? Don’t all of us have only a few of those?
Richard: Successfully, to be a worthwhile plant on the Extreme Line, it is advisable to have a certain amount of resilience, a certain amount of aggression. And so quite a lot of what we do is deal with these. Now we have now a grass, Korean feather grass that was planted in a single area, and I noticed in some photos, in about three years after it was planted, it had been 20 % of the mix. And three years later, it was 80 % of the mix on account of it’s merely such a virulent reseeder. That’s one among many points we now need to do, is we now need to deal with these points that have to be too worthwhile, in order that they don’t swallow their neighbors. Maintain the stability.
Margaret: Successfully, and so among the many ways in which he steered throughout the preliminary design and that you just and your group uphold and so forth to be naturalistic… I indicate, as an illustration, there was one which mainly you guys talked to me about in the midst of the Situations story interview, which, in spite of everything, it didn’t really occur to me. I wouldn’t have noticed it consciously, nonetheless there it is and it’s so obvious now that you have said it aloud to me.
While you’ve acquired the yard on both sides of a path, that these drifts of vegetation which might be on the one aspect moreover must typically be on the other aspect so that it seems as if the path was added by way of a pure area versus… Yeah, this continuity versus these are two separate gardens and proper right here is my path, additional manmade. And easily these sorts of hints like that. Any others like that that you just think about? Successfully, let’s focus on regarding the drifts probably on account of that’s an obligatory facet of his sorts of designs and naturalistic sort. [Above, Timothy Schenck photo.]
Richard: Successfully, it’s attention-grabbing on account of it could possibly be very easy to get these super sophisticated gardens with various vegetation exhibiting all subsequent to at least one one other. Nevertheless everytime you’re using nature as a model, nature tends to not… I indicate, it might be a very thick planting, nonetheless normally it’s a repetition of a sequence of species. So that’s what Piet has replicated. He’ll choose what he calls his predominant accent vegetation. After which the Extreme Line yard is unquestionably what he would consider a matrix yard. So it’s a planting of a groundcover layer, normally flowering.
So you could have points like autumn moor grass or catmint and totally different points which will merely offer you a basis a ground cowl, and that’s the kind of issue that you just’ll see normally drifting on both sides of the path. After which into which might be the larger perennials that occur in threes and fives and sevens. On a regular basis odd numbers for some goal, nonetheless it does always seems increased. Nevertheless he retains it simple. By preserving the drifts large, it turns into just a bit bit additional legible.
After which many of the new gardens that he does are actually block planting the place it’s merely sequence of blocks, clearly under no circumstances a geometrical kind, additional of a tear kind or some sort of a additional pure kind. Nevertheless he does that pretty incessantly collectively along with his newer gardens, on account of it’s less complicated to cope with. You understand what’s imagined to be the place, what’s gotten out of steadiness.
Margaret: I see.
Richard: Nevertheless proper right here on the Extreme Line, we’re just a bit bit additional sophisticated, so we’re frequently managing the dynamics of anybody species. Some points they don’t succeed. We had a number of vegetation. I’m very loads into Helenium, and I’m forgetting widespread names.
Margaret: Sneezeweed [laughter].
Richard: Sneezeweed, correct, positive, they normally merely under no circumstances took. And naturally, Piet doesn’t use quite a lot of crimson, and it’s type of burgundy crimson, the one which he was suggesting proper right here. I consider it was ‘Moerheim Magnificence.’ We merely wanted to seek for totally different points on account of it merely was under no circumstances blissful.
Margaret: In his genuine planting designs for the numerous yard areas on the Extreme Line, he type of narrows down… I indicate, these are smaller areas than nature, nonetheless he narrows down the number of key vegetation that we’ll be in, and he makes use of large numbers of each one in these drifts and these naturalistically fashioned drifts. Because you don’t want it to solely be a zillion polka dots all over the place of chaos. I indicate, that’s not going to be taught, is it? [Above, Liz Ligon photo.]
Richard: No. And it’s merely attention-grabbing we’re having this dialog, and I was merely this morning laying out a Piet Oudolf design. Now we have now a model new plaza that’s moving into at avenue stage at 18th Avenue that’ll be the newest a part of the Extreme Line to open in September. And it’s the first time I’ve laid out a Piet design. And we had been attempting on the plans, and it actually is, on this particular plan, giant drifts of varied kinds of grasses.
After which there’s geraniums coming in proper right here and geums over proper right here and agastaches over proper right here. You get a better sense of truly what he’s doing. That’s the major time I’ve ever achieved it, nonetheless it’s really thrilling to place the yard out and in addition you get a approach of truly how his ideas type of works. You see the development behind what he’s making an attempt to do.
Margaret: I suppose it was ultimate yr probably he had a e ebook come out that’s about his occupation, his initiatives, and there have been quite a lot of his designs in it as part of the art work throughout the e ebook, not merely photos. And you may see that there, too. You may even see these shapes and the vegetation which might be specified to go in every and so forth.
The other issue I uncover attention-grabbing regarding the drifts is it pleases our eye, and it actually works on this sort to do it that methodology. Nevertheless in nature, in case you had merely onesies of 1,000,000 varied issues, the animals, notably the bugs who’re relying on these vegetation, couldn’t uncover them and couldn’t profit from them within the an identical methodology. So the drifts moreover serve a goal, are you conscious what I indicate, in nature, throughout the pure world.
Richard: Fully.
Margaret: These plant communities are normally not merely 1,000,000 completely differing types of vegetation all crunched collectively. There are only a few key vegetation in greater numbers.
Richard: And in extra of the grassland plantings, as an illustration, he’s relying on positive vegetation to have the development to hold totally different vegetation up, which is what, in spite of everything, happens of their pure environments as correctly.
Margaret: Yeah, the meadows and prairies are literally grasslands.
So I’m knowledgeable by tons of people that’ve tried to or who’ve gone additional naturalistic in some area of their gardens, probably made a small meadow or regardless of, I hear, “Successfully, nonetheless it retains altering. It doesn’t look like the distinctive plan. It’s not how I imagined it.” [Laughter.] “It doesn’t look like the picture throughout the e ebook,” as soon as they bought it from a catalog, they bought the seed or the plugs or regardless of.
That’s sort of that, oops, good day succession, pure succession: the way in which during which points go in nature. And so let’s focus on just a bit bit about that, on account of that’s one factor that the Extreme Line 15 years on, or any naturalistic yard even 5 years on doesn’t look exactly similar to the plan, even when it was a Piet plan [laughter].
Richard: Acceptable. And Piet always says a yard’s under no circumstances achieved. And it is an evolution. And the yard will inform you what it wants to show into. And so after we’re the stewards of these naturalistic landscapes, we’re interrupting the succession, the succession being the pure world is shifting from a grassland to a mature forest. And that’s normally the course of the evolution of planting. And so we get to step in and say we have to protect it as a grassland, and so we now have to make these interventions.
Now we have to make substitutions for the vegetation that aren’t working. Now we have to edit out these, the thugs, for those who’ll, that get too blissful. We get to be absolutely shocked by the serendipity of 1 factor seeding in, or the combo that you just really weren’t positive of, nonetheless it’s type of rearranged itself in the way in which during which that among the many points have seeded. It’s being awake to how the yard must mature, and hopefully having a significantly delicate contact on guaranteeing that you just get one factor that’s pleasing and in addition you’re making the exact combos obtain success.
Margaret: Nevertheless it is quite a lot of modifying. I indicate, it’s not merely stepping once more and going, “O.Okay., that’s achieved. It’s been planted. All accomplished. On to the next enterprise.” It’s not that the least bit.
Richard: No. And some points really are alleged to be fillers in an early planting. After which as quickly because the grasses get established, they will want to show into 80 % of your meadow. And so it is advisable to probably have strategies for eradicating only a few, among the many taller grasses, the massive… Is it huge bluestem?
Margaret: Little bluestem and… I don’t know what you title the huge one, nonetheless yeah.
Richard: Large bluestem. Which left to its private devices was at one degree crowding out the pathway. And so we now need to go in and say, you acknowledge what? You’re good. We wish you throughout the once more. We wish you just a bit bit additional as a punctuation considerably than as a powerful wall. And so that’s the place quite a lot of the modifying is offered in.
Margaret: Because you had been merely saying the completely totally different vegetation and the way in which they almost have a life cycle, positive vegetation in these designs, and some are almost used as nurse crops, what you might title nurse crops, to begin with to fill home with one factor except for weeds which will come up from the soil. So a number of of your biennials and so forth, they’re not going to ultimate 5 or 10 years [laughter]. They’re not going to be there on account of as you degree out, the grasses and totally different points might have crammed in.
These points which might be relying on self-sowing aren’t going to have as many alternate options to reach bare soil anymore and their life cycle might be over from these genuine vegetation. So your black-eyed Susans or regardless of that you just who had been like, “Oh, look, there’s so a lot of these. They provide the impression of being so pretty,” Successfully, that won’t happen in yr 3 or 4 or 5 or 10.
Richard: Correct. This morning I was inserting Oriental poppy, which we don’t have on the Extreme Line. It was one among many genuine vegetation that had been spec’d, nonetheless it’s a sort of early attention-grabbing flower vegetation to return up between the small grasses for the first two or three years. They’re not terribly long-lived in my experience, anyway, so it’s merely a sort of let’s create some curiosity.
We had the an identical with… Is it foxtail Lily? Eremurus, positive. The an identical issue. Really worthwhile, an beautiful Extreme Line plant throughout the first 5 years, nonetheless now it’s been crowded out by grasses. We tried to get it established as soon as extra, and it’s a tough one. It’s a sort of so used to having expert drainage and scorching, dry areas. You make sacrifices. You say, correctly, that was good to begin with and now we’ll switch on to let the yard have one other facet that’s going to shine.
Margaret: Correct. So one different sort of modifying, a lot of folks have heard of the Chelsea chop, the timed and named for the Chelsea Flower Current in England, on account of in late Might, positive kinds of perennials are within the discount of half methodology. And doing that, they’re bushier and probably they start blooming just a bit later, nonetheless they’re fuller and so forth.
You type of take it to an extreme up there [laughter]. You guys have gotten Chelsea chops occurring. Merely inform me just a bit bit about that strategy of modifying the pictures. [Above and below, hedge clippers are used on drifts deeper in the borders; pruning shears on plants closer to the paths. Liz Ligon photos.]
Richard: Successfully, I consider it primarily comes from the facet like we now have so many vegetation, and the gardens are so full; we don’t have the ability to stake one thing. Asters throughout the tall grass prairie like Chelsea Grasslands [part of the High Line] will do O.Okay. with just one chop the place we’ll hit them nearly in late Might, early June, correct throughout the Chelsea Flower Current. Nevertheless we now have I consider it’s Aster October Skies which might be peppered all by means of the Gansevoort Woodlands of the Birch Woodlands down proper right here on the south end of the park.
Because of they’re in extra shade they normally can get floppy, I consider John [Gunderson] cuts these two or 3 occasions. So now I consider they did them in late Might, as soon as extra in June, after which he’ll do one different decrease most likely in mid-July. They normally’ll bloom later, nonetheless they’ll even be gorgeous, bushy, merely most likely 12 to 18 inches tall considerably than the 30 or 36 inches that they could flop over within the occasion that they’d been left to their very personal devices. We do that fairly a bit with vegetation. I consider Nepeta, some Monarda have been achieved typically.
Margaret: I wager goldenrods too.
Richard: Solidago, and among the many Coreopsis, too, I consider, we hit.
Margaret: As soon as extra, it provides you, with out staking or one thing like that, which could merely be unattainable, it provides you a bushier plant, which is sweet and wished. In another case you could have quite a lot of floppy points, notably as you degree out throughout the shady areas. You should have quite a lot of that occurring. And I take into consideration that you just do some thinning moreover, on account of you’ve got acquired quite a lot of wind, don’t you?
Richard: My gosh, positive. In actuality, it was pretty windy this morning, and great wind on account of it was low-humidity wind for a change. Nevertheless I do know that on among the many Joe-Pye weeds, as an illustration, which could get considerably dense and tall, these could possibly be very affected. We do it moreover with Baptisia, the false indigos.
Margaret: Constructive.
Richard: So there are among the many greater flowering perennials that mainly should be throughout the windier spots do should be thinned out in order that they don’t create an extreme quantity of sail.
And naturally, we do that with all of our timber as correctly. We protect all of the birch timber and the oaks and all of the items pretty correctly laced out to make it potential for we’re getting quite a lot of good dappled delicate on the understory, on account of we’re recognized for having this sophisticated tree cowl, flowering spring timber, probably the Amelanchier or the redbuds, after which the groundcover layer.
And all of that coexists, and that’s what I consider makes the Extreme Line such an superior place to go to on account of the gardens are so intense, and you have all these completely totally different layers. However it merely takes quite a lot of administration to make sure all of the items stays blissful.
Margaret: Correct, correct. Yeah, it’s fairly a bit. [Laughter.] It’s undoubtedly, undoubtedly fairly a bit. Nevertheless you had been merely talking about pruning mainly the timber. And the reality that what all of us confront, speaking of points that change in a yard, regardless of whether or not or not we’re managing it naturalistically or not, is usually a lot much less delicate, on account of our timber and shrubs develop as we’re there for longer. And so typically there’s the arduous decision to even take away a woody plant, on account of it’s surviving on the expense of, as you’re stating, similar to the groundcover layer or regardless of.
There’s merely not the sunshine that there was, and all of the items else is struggling. That’s a extraordinarily tough one. Nevertheless as soon as extra, it would not matter what your sort or your design aesthetic, that’s one which gardeners face who hold put for a really very long time and making shrubs develop, correct?
Richard: Positive. And it’s not a light-weight decision that we make to skinny timber out. Nevertheless I consider people had been shocked how correctly timber actually did on the Extreme Line. I don’t suppose they anticipated them to get pretty so tall and pretty so full. So it’s less complicated to say it’s merely getting too crowded on this home. The perfect issue to do, considerably than try to control every single tree into being merely the correct quantity of open, we’ll selectively take out a tree proper right here or there and open points up. And it seems additional pure, frankly.
You could think about getting that subsequent succession, these youthful timber rising in your woodland, so it feels just a bit bit additional pure, and then you definitely positively’re planning for succession. Because of if all the timber are 20 years outdated, all the timber are doubtlessly going to fail on the an identical time. So now we’re desirous about getting some smaller timber on this fall. So we now have this completely totally different age stage.
And in areas similar to the Flyover, which is the realm people may be accustomed to with the elevated walkway, there we’re frankly getting pretty a little bit little bit of reseeding. Successfully, the sassafras come up in every single place, nonetheless the magnolias, the big-leaf magnolias are self-seeding. Numerous the sweetbay magnolias are moreover self-seeding. So we’re leaving these and we get to select. And even in our bur oak grove, we now have some seedlings that we’re going to depart, so we’ll have completely totally different ages. And so it merely is creating that, desirous about what’s going to obtain success in 5 or 10 years. It’s merely planning ahead.
Margaret: I merely wanted to ask an adjunct to one among many points we had been talking about sooner than with self-sowns. Even ones which might be spec’d throughout the plan and the design, even ones that you just love. I consider John, who you referred to sooner than, John Gunderson, one among your senior gardeners, he has quite a lot of Virginia bluebells, Mertensia virginica, in his area [above; photo by Andrew Frasz]. And there could possibly be an extreme quantity of of issue, correct? It would most likely self-sow an extreme quantity of and deform the look. So typically you’re taking out points which might be fascinating nonetheless not in additional. Is that one different mandate?
Richard: Positive, exactly. The Mertensia is probably going one of many situations the place it’s good the place we now have it and it seems so pure the way in which during which it occurs in these giant drifts that go all through the pathway, nonetheless John does do some seedhead chopping. After which in spite of everything, it does desire a cleanup throughout the spring on account of the leaves as they’re fading once more don’t look so good. Often Piet’s really good about… If he’s using ephemerals and bulbs and points like that, he’ll have a plant that may be rising as a lot as conceal the leaves which might be yellowing.
He’s pretty good about that combination. I do know, as an illustration, we now have pretty a little bit little bit of Chasmanthium, the Northern sea oats, and we’ve noticed that reseeds pretty a bit. As loads as we are the yard that you could come to see on account of we now have these gorgeous seeds throughout the winter, we do selectively cut back among the many seeds in order that we don’t end up with too many vegetation.
Margaret: Exactly. It’s strong, and notably on newer gardeners, it’s strong on account of no person must put off one thing, or compost one thing, or toss something away, so to speak. And it’s strong. It’s a difficult decision. Successfully, the Extreme Line, I consider your gardeners knowledgeable me that best situations to go to are between 7:00 and 9:00 AM. [Visiting information.]
Richard: Oh my gosh, we do get very crowded on account of we’re very popular and that’s good. However when people really have to have an experience, come between 7:00 and 9:00 AM, and even throughout the evenings, we’re open throughout the evenings throughout the summertime. That’s fairly. We’re open until 10:00 PM.
Margaret: Wow!
Richard: And it’s an attention-grabbing experience at night time time. All the vegetation are low-lit, so it’s possible you’ll experience the… Nevertheless really the morning is when it’s magic.
Margaret: Successfully, Richard Hayden, thanks for making time. I do know to procure to get down there to 18th Avenue and go work out that planting format sooner than it can get away from you.
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